Relocating to where the opportunities are

Episode Description

Mubashar Iqbal was born in Pakistan but left his country at the early age of four because his father decided to move to England, where his father previously studied and graduated as an electrical engineer.

After finishing a degree in software engineering, Mubs got his first job at Oracle.

He got good pay but little satisfaction. After a while, he was offered a job by a tech startup company based in Australia, and this offer got him to where he is now – the United States.

Mubs moved to the US with a visa called an H-1B visa, a visa that is exclusive to professionals who have competent skills that could be of great contribution to America.

Though having the support of his company, Mubs encountered a situation wherein the salary he’s been getting was considerably lower than what he deserved, which made him want to quit his job. But quitting was not an easy choice for him because of the restriction of being in the US with an H-1B visa.

Years later, after getting married, Mubs was able to acquire his green card and become an American citizen.

A phone call from a friend led Mubs to New York, and many opportunities have welcomed him since then.

Now, Mubs is a well-known person in the tech industry because of his almost 100 side projects, including Pod Hunt and Founderpath.

Get in touch with Mubs


Tips and key takeaways


Episode Transcript

Mubs 0:01

I do often wonder like, what if I hadn't left San Francisco? Like I mean, like if my friend hadn't called me up and said, hey do you want to move to New York, I probably would still be in San Francisco right now as well. And my life wouldn't be anything like it is now. Again, I met my wife in New York, so I wouldn't have met my wife as well.

Daniel 0:21

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode number 29 of the Emigrant's Life Podcast, where we share stories of people who left the country to chase a better life. I'm Daniel De Biasi and my guest this week, mobs. mobs is originally from Pakistan, it moved to the UK when he was four years old. After graduating from university, they offered him a job in San Francisco to work for a tech startup company. After the job and started a new life in the US, after a long process and waiting, Mubs received his green card and later his American citizenship. Before moving to my conversation with mobs. Consider subscribe, wherever you listen to your podcast. It will be great if you leave us a review on Apple podcasts or pod chaser. And now please enjoy my conversation with Mubs.

Hi, Mubs. Thanks for being on the show.

Mubs 1:07

Thanks for having me on.

Daniel 1:09

No worries. It's actually a pleasure because I listened to another podcast that I listened regularly. And you were a guest on this podcast. So I'm pretty stoked having you on my podcast now.

Mubs 1:19

It's funny, because a few people recently have told me that like I'm like, famous now. And I'm like, No, no, no, no I'm not. I'm just this little guy who works in upstate New York. I'm not famous at all.

Daniel 1:29

Now we didn't and I mean, definition of famous is kind of different. Before it was like you have to be on TV to be famous. Now you have to have followers, or you need to be in this case, like a guest on a kind of popular podcast, you become famous automatically.

Mubs 1:42

Yeah, yeah. And I've got the advantage or I've been around for a really long time now, as well as I'm getting a little bit older than most of the people on the scene. So. So just by virtue of being around longer, you know, I get kind of invited on part of onto things because I've known people for such a long time. So that helps as well. Yeah.

Daniel 2:03

But today, you're on thispodcasts because you have an immigrant story, because you're usually on podcast, relate technology or tech things, but today is like about your immigration story.

Mubs 2:14

Absolutely. I've got a long and winding story as well.

Daniel 2:18

Because you're technically your emigration story started when you were four when your parents left Pakistan to move to England.

Mubs 2:24

Yeah. So yeah, I was born in a little village up in the north of Pakistan. I won't say exactly when but it was over 40 years ago now. But yeah, so and then my actually, so my father went to England to study. And then when he finished studying, he decided he didn't want to go back to Pakistan. And so he basically, at that point, kind of arranged for the entire family to move from Pakistan over to England instead. So yeah, so and that was when I was about four years old.

Daniel 2:54

You are a child of immigrants. And I heard these things multiple times, that the parents, like immigrant parents have high expectation on their children. Did you feel that way? Or how was it for you to growing up in England?

Mubs 3:07

Um,yeah, I mean, I mean, honestly, coming from a Pakistani family, I think most Pakistani parents have high expectations of their kids. It doesn't matter whether you're immigrants or that. But I mean, there was I think there was always the expectation that, you know, since we were in England, we were getting a, you know, a very good education, that, you know, me and my siblings, I'm the youngest of four kids as well, we would be lawyers and accountants, and you know, that kind of professional kind of kind of individual. I didn't follow through on that. But what kinda did, but not really, it wasn't the plan that I think my parents had. But now, I think, I think, yeah, I think like, is it coming from Pakistan, I think I think most parents there have this kind of high expectation of their kids. I think maybe, perhaps, you know, moving to England, I mean, my dad went there to study so he obviously thought of the sort of value of kind of moving to England to kind of study. So I think, you know, that's one of the reasons that I moved so that we would have that education and then have the sort of high opportunities that were associated with that as well.

Daniel 4:06

So I guess your father went to university in England?

Mubs 4:09

It was kind of a college. I don't know if it was a university, per se. So he finished he was in the he was in the army in Pakistan. When he got discharged from the army. He went to England to study. He did electrical engineering, I believe, but he was not an electrical engineer. But, but he was obviously a very smart guy. And so he once he finished his education, he actually purchased a, like a little grocery store go thing he just wanted to, he wants to run his own business. And so yeah, so the family had like a grocery store that we all kind of ran.

Daniel 4:46

Okay, so you didn't really follow the path of electrical engineer?

Mubs 4:49

No, I mean, I think you know, again, you know, because yeah, I think that was just yeah, this is going back to the 1970s in England and stuff. So I think it was, it was kind of a hard thing. Just to kind of find that kind of work and being an employee is harder to find that kind of work as well. And so yeah, but like so I think he wanted to kind of do his own thing as well. I think that was the sort of other factor as well. So he decided along that path instead,

Daniel 5:14

Are you kind of follow a similar path, because then you graduated from university or you decided to move to the US.?

Mubs 5:21

Yeah, so I went to Yeah, so I was four. So I hadn't really started started school in Pakistan or anything like that. So my, my entire education was from England, I went to I went to school, university after that I didn't get a job in England first I worked for about why I got one job with Oracle in the UK. I lasted three months there, I just decided I didn't want to work for like a big software company. I lasted about three months. And then I got offered a job with a little startup. It was actually an Australian company. But they were they were running an event in the UK. So they had hired some people in the UK. And then they had decided that they were going to move all of their staff from all over the world. So they had some people in the UK, some people in Australia, they were going to move them all to San Francisco in the States. And after having Yeah, I mean, they kind of mentioned when they were like trying to recruit me that we may end up moving you to America, or at least that would be an option. And so that was actually one reasons I ended up taking the job. But But yeah, so after about six months of working in England, they offered to move me out to the States. And I said absolutely.

Daniel 6:30

So you are already planning to move to the US?

Mubs 6:33

I don't know if I was planning on it. But I think I was always looking for the opportunity. Like I you know, I wanted to travel more. And I wanted to see the world a little bit more as well. And the States was always really appealing, just again, just just like the same kind as you mentioned, my father saw some opportunities or you know, being an immigrant as well. Being in software and working with the internet and stuff being in San Francisco in 1996 97. was the place you had to be. So when I was offered that opportunity. I said I said absolutely. Because that's that's where

Daniel 7:04

I want to be. Because you're in like into technology and actually what was your job title?How did you graduated from school? What was your background?

Mubs 7:12

Oh, yeah, so I have a I have a computer science degree specializing in software engineering.

Daniel 7:17

Okay. Yeah, definitely. San Francisco is the place to be if you are a software engineer.

Mubs 7:21

Yeah, I mean, I started, I started playing around with computers when I was about eight years old, just you know, we got just like I was a Commodore VIC 20. back then. And yeah, that was the first thing that arrived in the house. And so you play video games on it. And after a while, I got tired of playing video games, because we only had a few as satisfied the same things over and over again. So then I just started to like a hack on the computers just write code and read magazines and property code and magazines and stuff. And then it just kind of escalated out of there. Like I would just I would just kind of learn more, learn new languages and things like that. And by the time I went to university, I kind of already knew how to code. Again, going back to like, you know, 1992 was when I started University, you kind of had to go to university back then if you wanted to do software engineering. Now it's, you know, yes, it's still encouraged, but you don't have to. So back then I kind of felt like I had to go to university, even though I already knew who didn't everything like that, just so I could have the piece of paper that said, I was a software engineer.

Daniel 8:17

And what you were the way they pretty much was the golden age for for internet when the internet started.

Mubs 8:22

Yeah, I mean, it was just it was just becoming a commercial entity at that point. Like, obviously, this internet had existed since the 1960s. But at that point, it was primarily a kind of education slash military thing. Around 9495 was when you know, it started opening up to kind of enterprise and to kind of anybody who wanted to be able to be or sell on the internet. And and yeah, so it was just, it was kind of a just an amazing time to be in San Francisco and to be around, you know, sort of everything that was happening on the internet. And just to see it all just happen as well. Even even if you were working in it, just kind of be around and be able to see say that you were there, I think was an amazing opportunity as well.

Daniel 9:01

Totally. But did they send you the like I didn't move it to the US because you were like a really good your job or the worker shortage in software developer? What was the reason why they moved from England to the US?

Mubs 9:13

I mean, for them, I think it was more again, it was like they were and they were an internet startup. They were in they happen to be in Australia at the time when when they started and but obviously, again, being a software company, being an internet software company, trying to raise money and do all that kind of fun stuff. It didn't really make sense for them to be in Australia kind of back then. And and so they moved the company from Australia to San Francisco. And again, you know, again, you can have to go back in time a little bit and say, Well, back in 1996 the whole remote work thing is not a thing, right. So so you kind of have to have everybody in the same place. You kind of have to have an office and you have to get everybody in the same place. And so yeah, I mean, I think they're probably not there. There was a shortage it was just they there's not too many people who knows software and no internet software in 19 He's saying, so if you have somebody on staff who's working for you who kind of has that experience, then it's absolutely you know, do you want to go move? I mean, had I said no, like, I mean, had I said I want to stay in England, they I probably still would have worked with them. Right. But so it's not like they would have just said, Okay, that's, that's it Mubs. We'll see you later. But obviously, it just kind of made more sense for to kind of move as many people as they could over to San Francisco instead.

Daniel 10:24

You know, I bet by the same time, it will be easier just to open a new office in San Francisco, I look at people you don't have to go through the old immigration process, sending people, move people relocate them and everything.

Mubs 10:36

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I mean, I think like you said sort at the time. There's not too many people who've got experience. I mean, I already knew how to code in Java at the time, I knew how to build sites at the time, I already knew HTML and things like that. So you know, how many of those even in the US was there? How many people had that experience already? And kind of had that skill set already? So yeah, so I mean, I think it was a mixture of I mean, they like I said, they kind of knew when they were hiring in England that there was a big chance that they would be moving people from from England to California as well. And And so yeah, so I think that was always part of the the plan that they had they were just looking for people with those skills all over the world, I guess.

Daniel 11:17

So I guess for you, it was like a kind of fairly easy to move to the US atleast of through the migration process.

Mubs 11:22

Yeah, the company handled everything in terms of I moved on H-1b visa, they did all the application and everything wasn't really an issue back then, you know, it wasn't really an issue. I mean, I think one I mean, obviously, there was just, I think timing and scheduling was the main issue there, like you kind of had to do it at a certain time of the year to make sure that because there's a certain number of those H-1B visas, they kind of still is. And if you don't do it at the right time of the year, you kind of miss and you have to wait until the next year. So so I think that was the only thing that that was the main influence there was that you kind of had to do it, when the lottery thing opened up, essentially. And make sure you had your application in kind of early.

Daniel 12:06

And for people that don't know what the h-1b visa was for that?

Mubs 12:11

H-1B is just kind of a, it's a visa that's meant to be that is meant to be for people who have a specific skill that isn't that there aren't enough people with that skill in the United States already. So if you want to come in on h1 b visa, you can have to show that you have either some special skill, some special education, the company will have trouble filling in the United States. And there's a certain number of those visas that they that they issue every year and it's usually in around, it's usually you usually have to apply at the start of the year. And they usually run out in three or four months or so.

Daniel 12:45

So for you were just like he got a visa and you were able to stay for?

Mubs 12:50

Yeah, so you're able to stay for three years. And then you can renew it once for three years as well. So you can get an H-1B visa that lasts for three years and then you can renew it for another three years. After that you don't have to leave or you can try and you know, get some other kind of visa instead.

Daniel 13:06

So guess you stay longer. So you decided to change your visa in turn something else?

Mubs 13:10

Well, while I was here I met my wife my government is now my wife we got engaged and married and did all of that stuff. So yes, I I applied for a green card. And then after I had my green card for a while I applied for citizenship as well.

Daniel 13:25

Okay, so now you're like officially an American.

Mubs 13:27

I'm officially American. Yes.

Daniel 13:29

Doesn't sounds like.

Mubs 13:30

No, no, has still got the accent. I don't know how long that will last. But hopefully, hopefully a long time.

Daniel 13:38

So the immigration process was fairly easy, but the emotional process was easy as well to leave your family and friends?

Mubs 13:44

I mean, I think for me, I think it probably it was at the beginning. I mean, you know, like I was very young. You know, a few months out of university. Like said I think I was wanting to travel and stuff anyway. So I think it was fairly easy. I mean, I think I think my parents were a little bit surprised when when I said I want to leave I mean again, I coming from a very you know, Southeast Asian background. Yeah, my my, I will say my mum did everything for me. Like I never had to cook and clean or anything like that. My mum took very good care of me.

Daniel 14:18

Sounds familiar.

Mubs 14:19

Yeah. Yes. And so I think I think they were a bit surprised because I was going to go move to California and moved to San Francisco live in apartment on my own. Actually, I did have a roommate in the end. But yeah, I would have to do everything myself. Like I have to cook and clean and take care of myself and have no help and be have no help. Right. Like, it's not like I'm moving across town or something like that. I'm moving across the world. So I think I think my parents were a little bit surprised and they were very supportive. They were like, yeah Mubs, if it's something that you want to do, you know, but I think secretly they, they thought, oh, he'll be there for a month and he'll hate it because you'll have to do everything himself and you know, he's not going to be happy all by himself. He'll be back soon enough, but no, it's been a long time, but I'm still here.

Daniel 15:05

He will come back with the laundry.

Mubs 15:10

Like, if I if I mean, had I lived across town, I probably would have, I didn't really have that option.

Daniel 15:16

Shipping it over will be too expensive.

Mubs 15:19

I'm gonna I'm gonna fly home just like to do my laundry. I mean, I was I would say, I mean, the one thing with the whole, like, visa process and everything like that. Because I was on H-1B visa, the sort of harass and restriction, right? Like, because it's like this, it's, I think it's what they call the high skill. Visa. There's restrictions on like, who you can work for, basically, somebody sponsors you, right, like, so there's a company that sponsors you. And so you basically have to work for that company while you have the visa and you can't work for anybody else, and you can't do anything else. So, I mean, although it was, you know, pretty straightforward and fairly simple to kind of apply for that. And it did end up like it, you know, once I was here, and I was like, you know, there's so much opportunity, so many companies doing so many amazing things. And you know, really, I wish I could go for that company, I wish for that company, and it but it does limit your options, because you can't because you can't do any of that stuff. So yeah, so even though it's it's very cool. Yeah, just just have the opportunity. It was it was some it was somewhat, it was somewhat sad, too, because there was plenty of opportunities that came up that I couldn't take advantage of because of the the visa status that I was on as well.

Daniel 16:31

Did you manage to change company or you have to wait for a better better visa better immigration status.

Mubs 16:36

Again, this is being in San Francisco, and in sort of startup world, you know, some companies just aren't set up to kind of sponsor you and kind of go through that legal process of kind of hiring and stuff like that, too. So. So there's some of the again, going back in time these days, it's less of a concern. But still, there's so some companies that just won't, because it's just it's just extra expense, and kind of things like that. So, so some companies still kind of stay away from that kind of stuff as well. And then yeah, so those so it does limit your options in terms of kind of who you can go work for and, and and kind of what your options are. But yeah, I mean, there's there's certain legal things that you're not really supposed to work for other people, you know, you can you can do things where you defer payment, essentially. I mean, I there was one instance where I went essentially went to work for somebody, but I wasn't paid for like three months, because I didn't have a visa with them. Right? And so I got a good signing bonus. And when I actually started working with them, because effectively, I'd been working for them for three months, I just couldn't get paid until my visa came through instead.

Daniel 17:42

Yeah, that's that's actually a good point. Because I don't know, if you had the same experience, but company takes advantage of it, because they know that you can't leave as easy. So you can't just have another opportunity and just move it's much harder.

Mubs 17:56

Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I ended up leaving the first company, though, you know, the company that he moved me over here was that I found out that I was basically being paid half of what I should have been getting paid. If I was like an equivalent employee, kind of in the had I just been hired as an employee sort of in the US, you know, I would have been making a lot more than I would have had I come over for me. Now part of it was, you know, I was really young, I didn't know anything, you know, I didn't really know how to research that kind of thing, kind of way back then as well. And so, you know, had I also wanted, they probably would have said, yes, you can have it but you know, being young and just, you know, straight out of school and stuff like that, you know, they kind of make you an offer and you say okay, yeah, that's that's just the way it is. Right? And so yes, I'm sure they, I mean, just like any other company, they kind of take as much advantage as they can. Yeah, so that was one of the reasons that that I kind of ended up leaving, I was like, What are they? And yeah, and obviously once I said I was gonna leave, they're like, hey, hang on, you know, do you want a big pay raise? I'm like, Yeah, I did. But you should have you shouldn't have even taken that big advantage of me all these times. I'm leaving anyway. But.

Daniel 19:05

No, exactly. Even part of us. I don't know, I don't want to speak for you. But I think in my case, for example, when I wasn't on the visa and the company helped me to, to get a sponsor to stay in the country, you kind of feel like Yeah, you owe something to them. So you don't want to, I don't know, even if they pay you less, or they treat you differently, and somehow you are how can I say it-

Mubs 19:27

Well you feel obligated, right? Like you feel exactly like that obligation. Like they took the they took the risk of sponsoring me and paying for the legal, you know, the sort of filing of the legal papers and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, you certainly feel like there's an obligation that you have to, to kind of stick with them and you know, even even if there's other opportunities you feel like why should stay because they took that chance on me as well. But then yeah, like someone's like they would say yes, I was being taken advantage of. That kind of turned my stomach a little bit.

Daniel 20:02

But when I moved to the US, it was like many people from overseas from England or from other countries when you start in the in the startup?

Mubs 20:10

Well, yeah, because it was an Australian company. So there was a lot of people that came over from Australia. I was one of about three people that came over from England as well. So that that really helped me, I think, right? Like, because there was a lot of people in the same kind of situation just landing in San Francisco. They didn't know anything about the city. They didn't know anything about the country. Just going to learning and kind of exploring I think that really helped me I like I think, yeah, I think you're right, I had I moved over in there. I was the only person who was new who who didn't know anything about the area and stuff, I think, I think it would have been much harder it would have it would have been much harder to kind of assimilate and to kind of meet people and things like that. But because, yeah, there was probably I mean, I think the company was about 25, when, when when I landed in San Francisco, and I'd say probably half of those were from people from Australia, or people from England, which made life a lot easier, I think.

Daniel 21:01

Did a company help you even to find accommodation, find the place to stay,

Mubs 21:05

And they put me up in a hotel, I like short term for like, a month. So I could I could find and yeah, and they kind of arranged to talk to like an agent in terms of seeing different apartments and things like that. I think for the first, the first three or four weeks that I was in San Francisco, I didn't have to pay rent or anything like that they kind of took care of kind of that while I was looking for a place to actually stay instead. So yeah, so they had they did take care of me, I guess a little bit.

Daniel 21:33

I'll ask you that question. Because I heard other people on the show, they moved to the US. And one of the problem was one of the struggles, or one of the obstacles was to try to find a place to say to whoever lease been approved for at lease in the US was kind of tricky.

Mubs 21:47

Yeah, I mean, I think I mean, obviously the sort of the landlord wanting to speak to somebody at the company to make sure that you know, I was there, and I would be there for a long time and things like that. So yeah, it wasn't as easy as just kind of walking into, you know, walking into apartment and just signing some papers, it was, it did end up taking, I think I ended up having to make a larger, like security deposit as well, I think we end up having a make like an extra month's worth of security deposit as well. So that so that they felt more comfortable with us kind of moving in and you know, then and us not having a history and then kind of all that stuff as well.

Daniel 22:23

I mean, there's like a so many benefit to move abroad with the company with the company backing you up. Because all of these little steps. First of all, you move to a new country, you already have an income or you alreadyhave a place to go. You they help you we find a combination. In this case, they appeal to prove that you can pay the rent in the next month, all of that. And also correct me if I'm wrong, but even like having meeting new people, you probably move there, you already knew somebody because you came from the same company. Even then, like I started a new life in a new environment in a new country. At least you have something like people that you already know.

Mubs 22:57

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah. And you're you almost just start off your new life almost immediately, right? Like I started to go to the office every day, I would start to meet people, new people every day who are in the office, even though you know, I didn't know them when I first moved over. And then yeah, just just kind of naturally, like you just cut a lunch with some people. And you got to go dinner with some people after work, and they introduce you to other people because they know other people as well. And so just just being a part of that little circle there and just kind of expanding out that much easier than if you're there alone. And you don't know anybody. Yeah, you can try and try and meet people. It's really it's really hard. And, and yeah, no, I think I think Yeah, being able to move and have that kind of little circle of people that you work with already, I think is really, really helpful. Absolutely.

Daniel 23:50

And do you still live in San Francisco?

Mubs 23:52

No. So I lived in San Francisco for about three years, actually, two years. And then somebody I worked with in San Francisco, had moved to New York. And he was working at a little company in New York. And one afternoon, he picked up the phone and call me and said Mubs, do you want to move to New York? And I said New York New York so good. They named it twice. Absolutely. Yes, please.

Daniel 24:17

Kind of different weather.

Mubs 24:19

Completely different weather. But more more like what I was used to having come from England anyway. So it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't that bad. I was I was expecting it. It's probably a little bit colder actually. Then then kind of where I lived. But But now so yeah, so that was one of those that was kind of another one of these weird situations where I was actually at work one day, it was a Friday, I still remember. And it was I was at I was at the office and my friend called me and was like, yeah, so I'm trying not to speak too loudly because there's other people around me in the office and I've just basically just want to get in New York. And And so yeah, I'm saying yes, please without with with with with without trying to be too obvious about the fact that I might be leaving as well. And then yeah, and then I think it was about a month after that, that I was on a plane and headed to New York instead, while make you stay in the US, and I'll try to another culture, another opportunity. Um, I mean, I wasn't really looking for, you know, I wasn't really looking to leave San Francisco or anything like that I was really happy there. I was really happy to be working on, you know, working as part of the internet space and stuff. So I wasn't really looking to leave. So I think, you know, had had my friend not called and offered me a position I'd probably still be in San Francisco right now. But, but no, so it was just completely one of those things where it's just like, you know, somebody offers you and that sort of opportunity. And then, you know, and like I said, it was New York, too, right? Like, it's like, when you're young, you kind of hear about big cities. And what do you hear about you hear about like New York. And, and, you know, obviously, I grew up in London, which is big city, you hear about LA and New York. And so when when somebody picks up the phone and says, Hey, you want to move to New York, and that's not an opportunity, you can turn down often, I don't think,

Daniel 26:05

Yeah. Fair enough. Even though if you're watching the movies, every time the aliens come to the planet, or the one destroy a city, usually it's in New York. So I don't know if it's a safe place to be.

Mubs 26:14

That's probably true. But why? Yeah, we can talk about that a little bit. Because I was I was I was in New York, well for like, 9/11 and stuff. So. So yeah, so that's that's the whole thing as well.

Daniel 26:26

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Mubs 26:28


Daniel 26:28

So did you stick around even after the 911 happened?

Mubs 26:32

Um, well, I know the funny thing is I don't I don't live in New York City anymore. Like I live two hours north in New York City now. So yeah, so at the time I was living in in New York City. Well, so I'm when I guess it's a bit longer story than that, unfortunately. But yes, I moved to New York City. I was there for about two years working at kind of various startups and things. And then I left to go to Boston for a year. And then I moved back to New York. And that's when 9/11 happened. And it's funny because it's oh it's not funny, but it's you know, it's as he says, it's kind of interesting, because I used to work at 65 Broadway, which was like a block away from where the World Trade Center used to be. But I was living in Westchester County at the time, so I'd started doing my work by then. So half the time I was working from home half size working in an office in New York. And just so you know, just so happened to me that I wasn't in New York City, on that specific day, just pure luck, just because I was like, um, I feel like, you know, it was just that that schedule that week, where it was like, which day am I going to be in the office. And it just so happened to be that I was I was not in New York City. I was I was close, but not Yeah, so I was there watching, I used to work for a company that special that was focused on stock market information. And so I would wake up every morning to watch the stock market open and kind of watch the stock market and, and sort of things like that, and just my normal day, I would wake up around eight o'clock, and start watching the news and start watching, you know, start getting ready for the market to kind of open and instead of market opening, you can see all these planes crashing into things and and it just kind of it just hits you that I could have been there. Like I could have been in the city, like kind of when that happened and stuff. But But no. But you know, obviously, I was fortunate, I was lucky that I wasn't in the city. And I mean, even though I wasn't affected by it directly, it does have an impact on you, just because of what it is.

Daniel 28:35

Yeah, totally. And have you ever considered leaving the US moving back to England and moving somewhere else?

Mubs 28:40

I mean, I mean, now that, you know, I liked it, I met my wife, and we're, you know, obviously, I now have a wife and kids and a house and, you know, all of us. I mean, it's a much, it's a much harder thing to do. I will admit and, you know, once the president that we have right now came in. It did suddenly crossed my mind, you know, like, is this the kind of country I want to live in now, and and frankly, had he won again, in this in this recent election, I think we would have considered it a lot more. But thankfully, we don't have him for much longer. And I think I mean, I think like I mean, honestly, I mean, I still I think I would still want to live in a big modern kind of area, or like whether it's somewhere in Europe or somewhere, you know, somewhere in England or something like that, again, there's kind of risk everywhere. Right. So yeah, so so being not being in New York, you know, not being in into LA or, you know, not being California, you know, would would there still be risk in England or in some parts of Spain, you know, Europe or, you know, I mean, I think there will still be risk from it, that kind of terrorist angle, at least in terms of like a President like Trump. Yeah, that probably wouldn't be much risk of that in in much of the rest of the world.

Daniel 29:55

Maybe in Italy?

Mubs 29:58

Well, I mean, even in England, I mean, Like there was a lot of people that were very worried when Boris Johnson cut to be in charge too. So.

Daniel 30:06

I mean, because of you like I grew up in pretty much in England and moved to the US. And the culture is a same language multicultural is different. Yeah. Have you ever maybe fall maybe? I don't know, I can relate it to more to the culture in England and maybe phillimore in England? Or maybe like, No, actually, this is the place I want to be. Because I felt like, this is the place where I can call home.

Mubs 30:26

Yeah, I mean, I definitely thought about that. And I think in many ways, I fit in more here just in terms of, you know, the sort of work that I do. And even though I grew up in England, I mean, I think I grew up watching a lot of American TV and watching a lot of American culture on TV and things like that, too. So it didn't feel very foreign to kind of be here, it kind of it felt it felt very natural. I mean, there's obviously things I miss from England, and especially things like sports and things aren't quite the same here. But But yeah-

Daniel 30:58

Like soccer?

Mubs 30:58

Like, yeah, like, so I guess I still have to wake up. I have to wake up really early now to watch it instead. But, but no, i think i think you know, I think Yeah, I'm very happy here. I it's one of the things it's weird now that I think about it. It's like now, you know, with the way the technology is, I mean, I could literally live and work anywhere like it. I don't have to be in New York, I don't have to be in the US, I could I could be anywhere in the world as long as I had an internet, I can I can do what I do. And just like we're doing this podcast now. You know, it doesn't matter if I'm in New York or Europe or whatever. You know, I think now there's the opportunity if I was young and single now. Yeah, I think I would like I mean, I think that's the one thing I would do right now is travel a lot more and see a lot more of the world because i think i think it's much easier now. And and and not do it and be able to do it while maintaining employment and have a job and still be able to work and see a lot of the world as well.

Daniel 31:53

Yeah. Oh, totally man, because people like you like, they are like, so high demand all over the place, everywhere in the world, you can find a job in. And also, as you said, you can work remotely, you can even be in Thailand, and work for a company in the US.

Mubs 32:06

Yeah. Especially with the pandemic, like the once everybody shut down their offices, and we will have to go work from home people. I think a lot more people, you know, understood that, you know, I don't have to go to the office every day. I don't have to be there every day. And you can still get the work done. I mean, still, you know, the world still turning and things are still happening. And yeah, I've been I've been fortunate, like I started working remotely in so this was when I left New York the first time. So in July of 2000 was when I started my first remote work. And I've been pretty much remote ever since.

Daniel 32:42


Mubs 32:43

Yeah. I mean, like that. They when when I moved back to New York, that was you know, like I said, I was I was still spending three or four days working from home two or three days in the office instead. So but really, I was still working. I was still a remote kind of worker at that point as well. So yeah, for the last 20 years, I've really had I've had the opportunity to kind of work remotely instead.

Daniel 33:04

That's like a really good advantage. Yeah. And do you have any regrets about leaving England or leaving your country?

Mubs 33:12

Um, yeah. I mean, I think I think to some degree, because I, because I was four when I moved to England, even though English was all I know. It was almost, it was always like, Yeah, but it's not really your home either. Right. Like, I mean, because I was originally from Pakistan. So you know, was I officially Pakistan? Yeah. Cuz I was born in Pakistan. I was four when I moved. So I mean, I think had I been born in England, I think it would have been harder to kind of say, I'm leaving my homeland. But it's kind of like, I already felt like I left my homeland already. So leaving England to come to America was I think much easier than you know, had I been born in England. Now I come from a pretty big family. So I think that was the sort of hardest. It was also, it's hard because there's obviously you know, my my mom and my my sister my brothers and stuff and me I had lots of aunts and uncles and things day. So yes, you miss you miss that interaction. But because I came from such a big family, in some ways, it was nice to be away from them too. Like because all of a sudden it was like, Oh, shit that I can be alone now. You know, when when I was home, there was always somebody at the house, right? Like, whether it was an uncle or an aunt or something somebody was always visiting and it was always very hard to get some peace and quiet and stuff. So when I moved to San Francisco, I was like, wow, this is gonna be great. After a while you kind of took like you said after a while of that peace and quiet you do like oh, I do miss you know, I was hanging out with those guys too. But, but yeah, but it was so it was kind of a mix. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously you missed that. But also having the opportunity to kind of do my own thing and not be concerned about somebody was we get bounced to was was was also really a positive as well.

Daniel 35:00

It comes down to laundry.

Mubs 35:03

Well, eventually I started to cheek once, once I moved to New York. When I lived in San Francisco, I lived in an apartment and they had a kind of a laundry like right on the floor that I was on. So it was just a matter of just like holding on to the laundry. But when I was moved to New York, I moved to a farm that didn't have like, it didn't have any laundry. So I would actually just take my laundry to the laundromat, and they would just wash it for me. So I didn't even have to do my laundry anymore.

Daniel 35:32

That's awesome.

Mubs 35:34

That was the best thing about New York I think.

Daniel 35:40

And so we were we spoke before that a migration process moving to America was fairly easy for you. Was there any, like a challenges that you had to face when you move to the US?

Mubs 35:49

I mean, I mean, the I mean, the thing with the visa process and stuff, like I said is, I mean, there was a problem with the h1 b visas were like said, you kind of wish you had restricted about who you could work for. I mean, I would love to start my own company when I was really younger, but I really couldn't, because of the h1 b visa stuff that I was on. And then once we started to start the process of a green card and becoming a citizen, and doing all that kind of stuff that took a really long time, like that took years. And you know, at that point, you know, I got married, we had kids and stuff. So it was kind of stressful in terms of like, are they gonna approve my visa? Are they prove my citizenship? I mean, are we gonna have to leave? Because? Because, yeah, because you don't know, like, what their process is, and they do all their background checks and things. And, you know, I didn't think they were gonna find anything. And I guess they didn't find anything. But, but but you'd never really know. And it took a really long time. And it happened, you know, like I said, we were going through the process when 9 11 happened as well. And then you know, that that whole thing, just, you know, it just kind of threw everything for a loop at that point as well. Because you just don't know how things are going to change in terms of what what are the rules? Who are they allowing who they're not allowing, and coming originally from Pakistan, living in England as well, you know, considering you know, who the 9 11 attack is where and stuff just, I think just kind of amp things up a little bit as well. They're just in terms of, you know, what, what her reaction to people will be as well. So, yeah, not not stuff that you can control or anything like that. But it's just that's just the sort of world and then the world kind of happens around you. But yeah, I think that was that was really stressful. Yeah, no, I

Daniel 37:27

I bet, because I don't know, maybe you couldn't even like plan your life and maybe even like, buy a house. Why would you buy a house? If you don't even know if you're gonna stay? You don't have this entity that you can say in the country? Yeah, I

Mubs 37:39

Yeah, it makes it hard. Because like, even because once you're once you're applying for the visa, they put restrictions on you in terms of like, you can't leave the country and stuff. And so yeah, so you can't really plan a holiday. And you know, like, if you wanted to go overseas for a vacation stuff, you have to go, you actually have to go ask the government that I'm going to go for a vacation. Can I go on vacation? You know, things like that. So yeah, so it does. I mean, it does, it just puts it, it just, it just makes things more complicated while you're waiting for things to kind of work themselves out. But I mean, kind of Yeah, fortunately, you know, everything kind of worked out fine in the end, and kind of everything went through. It went through fairly smoothly. It just took a lot longer than we were expecting.

Daniel 38:20

Yeah, in the meantime, we don't even know what the time is gonna be.

Mubs 38:23

Right. And then and then yeah, I mean, what if they say no, like, I mean, like, you kind of mind starts to kind of churn like, Okay, if they say no, what do we do? Like? I mean, I'm not gonna leave my family, which is my family's gonna have to leave with me. So like, where do we go? Do we go back to England? Do we go to you know, somewhere else in Europe? Do we move to Canada? I mean, I don't know. Like, it's like, What? Your mind is not spinning at that point as well.

Daniel 38:44

And is your wife American?

Mubs 38:46


Daniel 38:46

So if you move abroad, that becomes the opposite problem. Because then your your partner, your wife becomes the immigrant to go through the process and everything. So it's not it's never like an easy process.

Mubs 38:57

No. Exactly.

Daniel 38:58

So and if your partner has a career, even then why would he carry on and try to build a career if he didn't even know if your family can stay in the country? That's not a problem when you're in the situation.

Mubs 39:08

Yeah. And then it's the same, right? Like, it's like, are we blocked from coming back to the US ever? Or is it just a, you know, is it just a temporary thing? You know, so yeah, so it's just, it puts you into that kind of cycle of, you know, are we just moving temporarily, or are we gonna move and then that's it, we just never coming back. But then, you know, she's got family here. So we obviously do want to come back and she wants to visit her parents and her siblings and things like that, too. So you're having split family like that, I think would have been really hard for Yeah. So I mean, she was different for me, because I kind of already made the move in terms of I'd made that choice to kind of leave and kind of move over here, but I think it would have been, it would be much harder on her I think.

Daniel 39:47

Yeah, no, absolutely. What's the biggest upside about being an immigrant about immigrating?

Mubs 39:54

I think for me, it was just that sort of opportunity to kind of work in in the industry that I was I mean, I could have carried on working, you know, in kind of England and stuff, but you know, just to be around, you know, San Francisco and to be even in, even in New York and and to have the opportunity to kind of work on the kind of things that I was working on with the kind of technology I had, that I was working on, I don't think would have happened over in England. So I think that was, that was a huge opportunity. And then again, you know, like I said, back then, and even still now, like just being in San Francisco, being able to meet the kind of people that I met, and have the opportunity to work with the kind of people that I did, just wouldn't have happened anywhere else in the world, I don't think so. So yes, I'm always really grateful of that. And you know, the these days, you can do a lot more stuff online, but But honestly, if you're, if you're just starting out in any kind of career, you kind of have to be in the place that, you know, that's the most popular place to be so. So even now, even though if I was graduating school, now, I think I would still want to move either to New York or San Francisco or even la depending on what kind of going to do. But I would also highly recommend people, you know, if you have that option, and young and you're single, especially it makes life a lot easier, but just just to kind of immerse yourself in something like that. I think it's much easier, kind of if you're there and able to do it in person, I think.

Daniel 41:23

Yeah, just like afford the connection that you can create, or the just the mentality, the mindset that being around the same kind of people with the same kind of mentality, the same kind of goal. Yeah, it could be an actor and be in Hollywood, you can you can be an actor to be I don't know London mean, you can be an actor, but at the same time, like, if you want to be like a movie star, you kind of need to move to LA,

Mubs 41:43

I think the thing that really struck me about San Francisco is that that's all people think about, right? Like I mean, and I don't mean that in a bad way, right? Like I you know, people wake up, they think about technology, they think about startups, they think about internet. It's, it's all that they think about all day long. And you know, you you run into people in, you know, when you grab lunch, that's all they're thinking about when you run into people like after work and they're at a bar or something, that's all they're talking about. And it's just amazing to kind of be able to tap into that whenever right like I mean, that was always the sort of hard part when you know, even when I left San Francisco, when I left New York City to kind of be upstate, it's much harder to kind of find people to talk to, and to kind of engage about what's happening in industry and things like that. When I was in San Francisco, there was a complete opposite, right? Like, that's all people would think about that's all they would talk about, it was very much easier to kind of stay plugged in and be a part of the scene and everything, because that's literally everybody talks about it all the time. And yeah, I mean, yeah, at some point, you've got to step away too, and do other things. But but it's, but it's okay. But for me, at least, like I said, it's okay to really immerse yourself in that stuff for a while and really soak up as much as you can.

Daniel 43:04

Actually, when I left Italy, my goal was to actually move to Silicon Valley to move to San Francisco because I wanted to be in that environment wants to work for a big tech company, or like a startup, I wanted to be in that environment. But because I couldn't find a job because I didn't speak English when I decided to leave Italy, I had to take the long route. So I have to go from New Zealand and now Canada. In the meantime, my mind has changed. But that was that was my goal at the time, because I that's where I wanted to be. And I knew San Francisco was the place to be.

Mubs 43:32

Yeah, no, I think I think the world's changed around us a little bit now. So it's a little bit easier to kind of do the same kind of things that you would do be able to do in San Francisco, but to be able to do them elsewhere. And you know, but I still think Yeah, like yeah, there's still big advantages to being able to do it's obviously there's there's some you know, there's some drawbacks too and it's very expensive and things like that. So But no, I think if you can swing it and i think you know, and if that's the kind of career that you want to you'll just give yourself such a head start if you can.

Daniel 44:04

Yeah, he said like it's expensive, but I didn't know when I left it because I was as you said before, I grew up watching like American TV shows and movies. So I was watching Big Bang Theory and they were like living in apartment like this huge apartment they will not make a lot of money and they were like living can be a problem

Mubs 44:22

Yeah yeah TV makes it sound pretty straightforward and easy but it's it's unfortunately not quite that simple.

Daniel 44:32

I think I read an article not long ago and they were discussing about how much the rent of this like a place it would cost even like apartment from friends Yes. I don't know much about would cost a mom because like it was a huge apartment and and they were not making much money people even looking friends some people didn't even have a job but they were able to pay the rent. It was just Yeah, the reality is it's quite different.

Mubs 44:53

Yeah, they wouldn't they wouldn't have been living in an apartment across from from Central Park. They would have been in like out in Queens or something. instead.

Daniel 45:02

Yeah totally. And do feel lucky to be an immigrant?

Mubs 45:06

Yeah, I mean, I I mean, I in many ways, like I said, I did it twice, right one because my father kind of kind of made made us all move. And then I was able to do it again when I left England. So yeah, no, I mean, I think I got a huge advantage of being able to live in England and have an awesome education. I left University in England, I didn't have I didn't owe any money, anything. I was actually one of the last years where the UK government was actually giving you a grant to co study. Right. So they paid me to go study, which is awesome. So I think they've changed that they have met her a long time ago now. But so yeah, I felt I mean, like, now I speak to and my thought is kind of be attending college here soon as well. And just like looking at how expensive it is, and how much you know, she could have to pay to just to attend college. So you know, I feel like I had a really good opportunity there into the having an education and yeah, not having to not not having to pay huge amount for it. And then and then to have the opportunity to go and kind of work in San Francisco for a while. And then and then on the East Coast here as well. Yeah, I feel like being an immigrant opened up love opportunity that I wouldn't have had had, obviously, if I'm still in Pakistan, I don't know what I read it right now. But you know, even in England, I mean, I think, you know, I probably would have, I would have found a high tech job, you know, somewhere in England, but it still wouldn't have been quite the same experience and the same opportunities that I've had because I was here.

Daniel 46:32

And now your children's they have they allocate the children of immigrants? Are you do you have like the high standard as your parents like your parents did? Or you feel like you're a little bit loose? Are you expectation more than higher standards?

Mubs 46:46

No, I mean, I think I think it's slightly different, I think is more of a generational thing. Now, like, I mean, I think kids actually have, at least I mean, I felt like my whole generation had this high amount of pressure on them in terms of like figuring out what you want to do with your life, and you have to go to college, and then you have to go study, and then you have to go start a career and stuff like that. I'm hoping that my kids kind of figure out what they want to do. Because I think that's the hardest bit is like, I mean, I was very lucky, like I said, I started to play with computers, when I was eight years old, and kind of just fell into being able to write software and kind of work on computers and stuff. But I know, there's plenty people who still haven't quite figured out what they want to do with their lives and who they want to work for, and what kind of work they want to do and things like that. So I think I've been just trying to encourage my kids as much as I can to figure out what it is that they want to do and what it is and what it is that they want to be because I think you can have an impact on the world doing whatever you want to do, I don't think you have to be a specific career. You don't have to be a lawyer or attorney or any you know, you don't have to be in a gallon to kind of have an impact. Because you know, if you want to be a doctor, you can have an impact, if you want to write software, hopefully have shown that you can have an impact as well. And so yes, I think I think you can have an impact doing whatever you want to do. And if you if you can figure out what that is, then I think that that's that's the first step. I think.

Daniel 48:14

But at the same time, it's okay to change your mind. If you're starting to become a lawyer and the utility like, uh, you know what, I don't like this job, but you change, you become a software engineer or whatever, or vice versa, whatever. I think even changing is good.

Mubs 48:27

No, I mean, I think my wife and I probably disagree a little bit of this. And that's, and that's okay, too. But I mean, I would be fine. If, you know, if my kids came to me and said, you know, after high school, I want to just take that year off, I want to go and explore the world. I want to go see, you know what, you know what the world has to offer and to figure out what I want to be to figure out what I want to do. I think that's the right time to do it. Right? Like, don't wait till after you spend four years in university in college, spend lots of money and then be like, I don't really like what I would doing right now. Like, yeah, figure it out first. And then you can spend the four years to kind of have the education that you need, and all that kind of stuff, too. So absolutely. I think I think it's worth just kind of exploring who you are exploring what the world has to offer and figure it out. Without without too much pressure to actually figure this.

Daniel 49:17

I'm turning almost 35 and I'm still figuring out what I wanted to life. I change it like in my career, like multiple times. I'm still changing.

Mubs 49:25

Yeah, I mean, I tell people I'm really lucky. Like, I if I think back and look at it. I was lucky. I didn't really choose to be a software engineer. I was like, it was just like, it just happened. Like, you know, I just started playing with computers and I liked it. But because of the skills that I picked up as a software engineer, I worked on sporting events. I've done stock market stuff. I build websites for bathroom companies, for TV studios for films, you know, I've done stuff, you know, I've done so many different things. I've had this opportunity to work in so many different industries. With, with lots of really amazing people, because I was lucky because I happen to be able to do this thing called write software. You know, like, I didn't choose something that was so siloed and so specific that it just opened up so many opportunities. I think that I, that's the thing that I've tried to, you know, express to my kids is like, it's not so much. You know, what do you want to do is like, what's, what's the skills that you want? What's the things that will make you be able to do what you really want to do to learn skills? Don't worry about a specific career?

Daniel 50:33

Yeah, because correct me if I'm wrong, even Yo, yo, you're lucky that you'll discover programming and software developer, but the same time, you got almost 100 different side projects, they like, it seems like even you even though it's the same topic, the same fundamental, but the same time you change your mind quite a few times the things that you want it to build and the things that you want to pursue it.

Mubs 50:55

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, if you look, yeah, I have close to 100. not quite there yet but soon. But no, I mean, like, yeah, there's some that are about. I mean, I like to watch movies. So there's four or five projects in there about Hollywood and the movie industry. I like football, soccer. So there's a few sports ones in there as well. So yeah, there's a good mix of things that kind of allow you to kind of do the things that you enjoy outside of the thing that you do for a job. But it just so happens that you know, the thing I like to do for a job is the thing that I like to do when I'm not working as well. But But then I try and pair it with those other things as well. So that then I'm kind of enjoying, even though it's still work, because I'm writing code and stuff. But it's also making things that I kind of enjoy and and hopefully this will other people who find them will enjoy it as well.

Daniel 51:46

Going back and thinking back what you've done in your life, is that anything that you would have done differently?

Mubs 51:53

Now, I mean, I think given the the sort of the age and the sort of world at the time, I mean, like I said, I think a lot right now, if I was 20 right now, if I was or if I was just leaving college, right? If I was leaving high school right now, I would I think I would travel a lot more like I would see a lot more of the world. I would I don't think I did that enough when I was young. And but you know, but I don't think I had that opportunity when I was younger, just because the world isn't the same as it is right now. But I think these days, people have a lot more options, right? There's more flexibility in the world. Back then, like I said, I had to go to university to get the piece of paper that meant that I could do the job to do even though I could already write code. Now, you know, if I was 16 right now, I could build websites and people would hire me because they can see that I can build websites that that was an option for me when I was 16. So I think I think you kind of have to take the best advantage of the opportunities that are there. I think right now you people have way more options, way more opportunity than they even think they do. And and I think Yeah, so right now if I was young and single and and just finishing school. And yeah, just like I left when I finished school, but I left because the work, you know that that opportunity was there for me. I think now you can make that opportunity for yourself as well.

Daniel 53:17

Do you think it will the left England anyway, even without that opportunity? x

Mubs 53:22

Ah, that's a good question. I think there would have been a short window of where, you know, had I not got offered the job in San Francisco, I may well have like, traveled a little bit more like more in Europe specifically. And I may have traveled to the United States as well. But I don't think I would have like left and like, become an immigrant myself kind of in that sense. I think I probably would have traveled more, but not left.

Daniel 53:53

Why? Because you think it would be too hard?

Mubs 53:56

I think because of my upbringing, and because of, you know, being part of the of the big family and stuff. I think, you know, just that the pull of that where they just kind of would have kept me closer to home, I think.

Daniel 54:10

Yeah, that's the funny thing in life. Because if you didn't have the opportunity, now you wouldn't have met your wife, the family that you are, it's, it's crazy thinking of that, like, what was the movie? Sliding doors?

Mubs 54:24

Yeah and there's been lots of things that to like, I mean, I do often wonder like, what if I hadn't left San Francisco? Like, I mean, like, if my friend hadn't called me up and said, hey do you want to New York, like, like, I probably would still be in San Francisco right now as well. And my life wouldn't be anything like it is now again, I met my wife in New York. So I wouldn't have met my wife as well. I mean, maybe I'd have it. I'd have some other life instead. I don't know. But that it's but yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think those are the two things right? Like if I hadn't, if I hadn't put a certain thing on my resume when I was at school, then I wouldn't have been found by the little internet company that was looking for somebody who was looking for that specific skill, they wouldn't have hired me, I would still be at Oracle, more than likely I would have still stayed at Oracle even though I wasn't happy. It was my first job. I wasn't looking for a job. I wasn't looking for work at the time. They just happen to find me in some resume database. And they they called out and said, you know, would you consider leaving? And well, yeah, I wasn't very happy Oracle. But it was a good job. Right. You know, it was my first job. I was being paid well, I wasn't happy. But I was like, I was satisfied, I guess. And so yeah, this is one of those little things where you're like, Well, you know, had I not put that thing on my resume, I'd still be there.

Daniel 55:39

Yeah, like, it's smaller things in life. And our job will say that you can connect the dots just looking by looking backwards, you can connect the dots looking forward. Right?

Mubs 55:50

Yeah, cause it's funny. Yeah. Thinking about like, I got my job, Oracle, six months before I graduate, like in January, they had offered me the job to go work at Oracle. So my last six months at university, I pretty much just, I just slacked off. They said, just as long as you pass, and you have a degree, you can come work for us. I was like, cool. Like, I get six months off. But then I started working. And I was like, Oh, my God, it was such a pain. It was so painful. And then like I said, randomly I yeah, because I it's just the fact that I even submitted a resume somewhere, because I already had a job in like, January of that year. And so it was just randomly that, you know, somebody found my name in some resume database and offered me a job to go move to San Francisco.

Daniel 56:39

Because Oracle is a huge company, you could be set for life, you could just retire by just working for Oracle,

Mubs 56:45

They were the second of all, they I don't know if they still are, but they were the second biggest software company in the world that sort of at the time. And I mean, the main reason it was it was a pain for me at the time, at least was I was working in England. And I should say, I think it was kind of the way that Oracle worked. But back then again, you kind of had to have like that centralized organization stuff. So even though I was working in in England, for us to do anything, we had to get approval from head office and head office was in San Francisco. And so you know, there's an eight hour time difference between England and San Francisco. And so there was often a lot of times where you would just kind of sitting around waiting for San Francisco to wake up so that you could ask them if you could do the thing that you wanted to do. And you know, like I said, after after a few months of that, I was like, This is ridiculous. You can't you can't do business like this. You can't work like this. And so I mean, but like I said, I was I was getting paid, I wouldn't, I would have still been there like I wouldn't have cared if they carried on pay my salary. They want me to sit around twiddling my thumbs for six hours a day because you know, I gotta wait for Cisco to wake up.

Daniel 57:52

They would have offered you to move to San Francisco, even if you stay in Oracle.

Mubs 57:55

That's the funny thing is after I moved to San Francisco, like for the people that I worked within inside of Oracle ended up working for a year in San Francisco as well. So yeah, so they had stuck it out at Oracle. And then we were still email and stuff, even back then. And they're like, Well, guess what, we're gonna be in San Francisco for at least the next year as well. And again, this is this is another fun little story. I would never have gone skydiving had my friends cutting up mu come from Oracle illegal into services case. Again, I was in San Francisco and one and they had come to San Francisco with Oracle. And they call me out one one weekend. They're like, We're going skydiving this weekend. Would you like to go skydiving? I was like, Okay, let's go skydiving. But again, I never would have gone skydiving if they hadn't called me that was kind of one weekend.

Daniel 58:53

With that after watching pointbreaks?

Mubs 58:57

No, they Yeah, they were a little bit more, you know, outgoing. And, and, and adventurous than I was. But I guess I could be I could be roped into those things.

Daniel 59:11

And for the listeners that there may be on the situation on the same fields and since they me industry, do you have any particular advice for them? If they want to leave the country?

Mubs 59:19

I would like to say right now. I mean, you know, technology makes it so that you can work from wherever you want to like I would just I think this is the one thing I would do. Now if my kid was you can now travel to wherever you want to to see if you like the place right like I mean, I took a leap of faith that I was going to live in San Francisco. I've never been to San Francisco had never seen San Francisco before. And and and to just kind of move there I think was kind of a big risk. But now nowadays you can you can go visit places for a month or two to see if it's something that you want to do. I think that's my only recommendation now is just like, you can work from wherever you are you can or you can take some time off or whatever but, travel, see if it's if it's a place that you think you will like. And then if it is, yeah, well, I mean, and to really experience I'm to really get a feel for a city or a country. And so if you do have to be there for a few months at least, so even if you don't want to be there for long term, be there for a few months, be there for three to six months, at least, so that you can really experience the people and, and sort of kind of everything that that place has to kind of offer. I've done some traveling just in you know, just taking kind of holidays and things. And yeah, you see all the touristy stuff that you kind of feel like you have to see, but, but to really know New York and to really know, San Francisco, for example, the place that I lived, you know, you kind of have to live there for a while and you know, become part of it, instead of just instead of just being a tourist.

Daniel 1:00:47

Yeah, no, it's completely different being a tourist and be there for a couple of weeks and actually live there. Yeah, just the things that you you see the things you do, it's just a completely different. But if you lived in San Francisco or New York, what city would you recommend for people to start their career into into the tech industry?

Mubs 1:01:04

Tech industry? So tech industry, I mean, for the techie, you can have to still say San Francisco, I mean, like it's there's still just so much energy and so much happening in San Francisco. I mean, New York has other things. Like if you if you told me that you wanted to go work in finance, work on, you know, work on the stock market stuff, then you go to New York, even if you want to work in the advertising industry, for example, then yeah, maybe you go work in New York. If you're working in the video game industry, then you have to move to LA. That's where all the big stuffs happening as well. But if you just want to be in if you want to do software, you want to build stuff on the internet. There's no better place for that than San Francisco.

Daniel 1:01:42

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much Mubs to share your story and share your your knowledge. If people wants to get in touch with you, what's the what's the best way to reach out to you?

Mubs 1:01:53

The best way is actually on Twitter. I'm pretty active on there. I share lots of information about the stuff I'm working on stuff. It's my full name. So it's @mubashariqbal.

Daniel 1:02:03

Okay, I'll put everything in the show notes might be easier.

Mubs 1:02:06


Daniel 1:02:08

Awesome. We didn't even cover what you're doing. And we said we'd like a slightly forward that you have like almost 100 Project 100 website on your portfolio and go from movies to podcasts recently. I think you launched a few about podcasting.

Mubs 1:02:23

Yeah, I've been doing that for a few years now focused on the podcasting industry. I think there's just a lot of opportunity here. And I love being on podcast. I love listening to lots of them as well. So absolutely.

Daniel 1:02:33

Yeah, we'll share the same passion about podcasting. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much Mubs to take the time to do this interview. I really appreciate it.

Mubs 1:02:41

Yeah, no problem. And yeah, I mean, I mean, again, and just to be clear, absolutely. If anybody has any questions or anything like that, always really happy to chat with people, especially on Twitter as well.

Daniel 1:02:52

Sweet. Awesome. Thank you so much mobs.

Mubs 1:02:54

Thanks for having me on.

Daniel 1:02:55

Thanks. Bye. Say bye. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. You can find the show notes with everything discussed in this episode at 29 If you enjoyed this episode, you can share with your friends and please consider leaving us a review on Apple podcasts and pog chaser, that will really help the show growing and reach more people. If you'd like to share your story and be my guest on the show. You can send me an email at or visit Thanks again for listening. Talk to you next one. Ciao!